It's time to end this war.

In his OPED piece on Iraq titled My Plan for Iraq   Sen Obama outlines his positions, and ends with a simple sentence that simply states his desired outcome

It's time to end this war.

Well said.  

But what does it mean ?

We can unilaterally choose the manner in which we begin wars, but not the manner in which we end wars.  Ending a war requires the cooperation of a 2nd party.

There are 2 ways to end wars: with a decisive victory for one side, or with a stalemate.

In a stalemate, both warring sides decide that the cost of continued fighting is not proportional to the potential rewards of a desirable outcome, and decide to shelve the fighting with some sort of cease-fire or peace arrangement.  Generally, this happens after years of fighting...

In a decisive victory, one side has clearly won, and that victory is accepted by the other.  Generally, this occurs when the victor grants some concessions to the loser, so as to reduce their motivation for continued fighting for a lost cause.

There is, of course, the 3rd option: ending a war with a surrender (and of course, this method of ending the war is unilateral ~ it does not require cooperation from the other side).

But I am guessing that "surrender" is off the table.  Thus, the only 2 options in Re: ending the war are a decisive victory, or a stalemate.

And therein lies the problem.  

Sen. Obama's plan to end the war sounds a lot like the stalemate option, minus an admission that a stalemate is indeed the desired goal.  And Sen. McCain's plan to end the war sounds a lot like the victory option, minus a realistic plan to get to a decisive victory.

Let us ignore the missing element in Sen. McCain's plan ~ I do not believe that he can devise a realistic plan for victory that is also acceptable to a war weary public, and concentrate on Sen. Obama's proposal.

My first question is: Why cant we just admit that a stalemate is what we desire ?  It would be a lot easier to achieve this, if we were actually honest about it!

From Sen. Obama's OpEd:

Only by redeploying our troops can we press the Iraqis to reach comprehensive political accommodation and achieve a successful transition to Iraqis' taking responsibility for the security and stability of their country

This statement is symptomatic of the problem.  In my opinion, the desire to redeploy the troops is necessitated by a desire to "bring the troops home" (can anyone honestly argue otherwise), and not by a desire to force the Iraqi's to reach a comprehensive political accommodation.  The expectation of political accommodation following US troop withdrawal is being tacked on to justify a withdrawal necessitated by a wish to bring the troops home.  

Is there any reason to justify an expectation of political accommodation if US troops are departing (or threatening to depart) ?  If so, I would like to see that case being made prominently.  Or, is there a stronger expectation of political chaos and anarchy in the absence of US troops ?  Sen. McCain argues that US withdrawal will enable chaos, that will empower AlQuaeda.  That is a reasonable expectation, in my opinion, and if Sen. Obama has a different expectation, he needs to justify it.

Sen. Obama makes a very strong, and twofold, case for pulling out US troops from Iraq ~ that current troops are overstretched, and current troop levels cannot be maintained.  Secondly, he argues, US troops are needed elsewhere (in Afghanistan) where US has a strategic need to "win".  Politically, and realistically, those reasons may well be sufficient.

Unfortunately, Sen. Obama does not even try to justify the pullout in terms of it being the right thing to do.  Because that case would require an answer to the following questions:

(a) Was it wrong for the US troops to have gone into Iraq, in the first place ?  If it was, then why did it have overwhelming support from the American people, and what responsibilities do the American people have, for foisting an unnecessary and unjustified war.

(b) Was it right for the US troops to have gone into Iraq.  If it was, then why is it suddenly right for them to leave ?

I commend Sen. Obama for having opposed the war back in 2002.  I believe (and I have always believed) that the US invasion of Iraq was immoral because it launched an unneccessary war.  I also believe that UN Sanctions on Iraq should have been lifted in 1998, when it should have been apparent to any honest observer that Saddam was in compliance with relevant UN resolutions, and that, as a consequence, the war was also "illegal".

However, that war was launched by a duly elected American President with the overwhelming support of the American people (around 80%, as per the polls) and with bipartisan support in the American Congress.  That means that the American people now have certain obligations that cannot be wished away... The "you break it, and you own it" rule applies!

It may be time to end this war, but it is not clear to me how this war can be brought to an end !!



Display:


Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Kudo's on a well reasoned discussion of the situation. I also opposed the invasion but understood how it happened. I ranted every night about it. That was then, I realize we are there arguing about how we got there serves no purpose. What we do next comes with great consequences and will take serious thought and planning.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:08:21 PM EST

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Thank you for the support, and for the rec!

I am not expecting to be recced when I take such contrarian positions!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Obligations to whom?  The Iraqis?  All measures of popular opinion are that they want us out.  We may have fiduciary and humanitarian responsibilities to them, however.

Yes, I believe the American people were wrong then, and are right now.  


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:21:11 PM EST

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Yes, I have seen those same reports of the Iraqis wanting a withdrawal.  Not sure if I believe it...

And yes, we should talk about fiduciary and humanitarian responsibilities.  About 1 in 5 Iraqis are displaced internally and externally (most in Syria).

An honest beginning in fulfilling the humanitarian responsibility would be a willingness to take on any Iraqi refugee that seeks a better life.  This would probably amount to about 2 million refugess...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

I thought they were wrong then as well and I thought it then and I said it then. But yes there are what are basically humanitarian issues involved with us leaving. We need to leave behind a stable government capable of protecting it's citizens from warring religious factions. We need to leave behind a government capable of defending itself from outside invasions. Failure to secure either of those will put more blood on our collective hands and that is not  the goal here.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

I don't understand what you want.  Seriously.  Do you want Obama to say, hey we aren't going to win so let's just leave cause it sucks, or does it bother you that he uses a strategically meaningful quote to arrive at the same end, while also being true?  Who gives a shit, it sounds good without him sounding like a lamb and the troops come home.  Americna want the troops home, more so than winning the war.  The war was wrong and we shouldn't have gone in.

The you broke it you buy it is a valid point.  The reason Iraq is so F'ed is largely due to the inadequate investment and planning (and guarding) of the rebuilding effort, nor using Iraqi resources to help in rebuilding its own country (labor, Construction companies, etc., all brought in by US contractors).  
If you haven't seen the movie, "No End In Sight" you should see it, it pretty much goes in line with your thought of "how this war can come to an end?"  That will be Obama's biggest risk, leaving too quickly without establishing necessary infrastructure to at least support the physiological needs of the Iraqi's.  
Then again if Malaki says "get out now", we have to leave, Iraq is a sovereign nation and we would then be unwanted occupiers, but we should still be compelled to join in compacts stating that we will help with investments into the rebuilding.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:52:34 PM EST

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

You dont understand what I want.  I dont understand what you want.  You dont understand what you want.  And I dont understand what I want.

That is the crux of the problem !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Wait...I think I got it...nope, never mind.

Wasn't rying to be offensive just stating the ends are the key, getting  troops back is crucial and obviously has to be done safely.  It is what a majority of Americans want, and that is who this gvt answers to (sometimes, rarely, insert adverb, etc.).  Rebuilding is crucial, but we may have a limited reach into that depending on what the new Iraqi gvt. says.  We should listen to them, other wise we become the enemies of the country we helped create.  Sort of confirms the global view of America as doing whatever it wants, we need to change that, we need diplomacy and friends, we are not going to be the superpower too much longer in Globalization.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

I think I was trying to (in my diary) point out that the end of "bringing the troops home" is not a strategic, or morally justifiable one.  It is merely the lazy one.

Most Americans want to bring the troops home, I will grant you that.  They also want to bring the troops home without letting OBL claim victory, or for Iraq to descend into chaos.  In short...they want to bring the troops home, but they also want them to stay there !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's time to end this war. (none / 0)

Well I don't think that leaving Iraq will allow OBL to claim victory, we will still have forces in Afghanistan, trying to negotiate getting into Pakistan to capture OBL and a the top terrorist leaders hiding out there.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ABC News/Washington Post (none / 0)

"Despite broad, longstanding dissatisfaction with the war, just 50 percent of Americans prefer Obama's plan to withdraw most U.S. forces within 16 months of taking office. Essentially as many, 49 percent, side with McCain's position -- setting no timetable and letting events dictate when troops are withdrawn."

No one has flip-flopped more on this war than the American public.

Even more disturbing;

"Seventy-two percent of Americans -- even most Democrats -- say he'd be a good commander-in-chief of the military.

By contrast, fewer than half, 48 percent, say Obama would be a good commander-in-chief, a significant weakness on this measure."

WTF.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:53:13 PM EST

Re: ABC News/Washington Post (none / 0)

Most Americans would not walk into to an investment brokers office and hand their life savings over to the most Jr person working there and say you take care of this for me. That same caution comes into play when your are selecting a CIC. This is not meant to be a bash it is just meant to help explain your WTF above.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good (none / 0)

now explain why half the country wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good (none / 0)

They dont... they also dont believe the caricatures of Sen McCain wanting to stay in Iraq for 100 years.

After all, his spoken words dont quite amount to that, you know =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good (none / 0)

49 percent, side with McCain's position -- setting no timetable and letting events dictate when troops are withdrawn

sounds like half the country wants to "stay the course" to me.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC News/Washington Post (none / 0)

Actually, the American people have not flipflopped at all.  They have been consistent all along.

They want a victory... they support a victory.  They do not want a defeat... they are opposed to a defeat.

They are also in opposition to committing enough resources for a true victory.  Therefore, they (by default) support a position whereby they can claim victory, without having to make the necessary sacrifices.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sounds like flip-flopping to me (none / 0)

I want to win, but if I have to do it, then I don't want a win, oh...wait, I don't have to sacrifice? Then I want to win!


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:42:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sounds like flip-flopping to me (none / 0)

Use of the word flip-flop implies that they have taken a stand.  I contend that this has never been the case here.

But I am not quibbling with your description either!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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